The Murder of Dr. David Kelly: Alex Jones Interviews Michael Shrimpton
Monday 23rd February 2004 " my guess is that most of the newspapers in the UK would be worried about the political consequences of going public with any story suggesting David Kelly was assassinated. And then you've got technical competence, there aren't that many good investigative journalists in the UK. It's not that difficult to get the mainstream media to buy an official version of events..."
David Kelly was probably the most respected microbiologist in the United Kingdom. Certainly one who specialised in weapons of mass destruction. And he was the head of our main WMD laboratory at Porton Down in Wiltshire. He was very involved in the dismantling, verification of the dismantling of the Soviet WMD programmes after the end of the Cold War. He spent some time inside what was the bad old USSR. He was the senior British inspector on UNSCOM, the UN mission inside Iraq. He spent some considerable time in Baghdad. He was working very closely with our overseas intelligence service, MI6 or the Secret Intelligence Service, and he was a major, high-value, British intelligence asset. He was a good man. Decorated, awarded the CMG, Commander of St Michael and St George. Highly regarded and well liked too within the British intelligence community, and also respected in the United States.
David Kelly briefed in a British BBC journalist called Andrew Gilligan and also spoke to another journalist for the BBC Television's Newsnight programme, and he briefed in both journalists along the lines that the case for, the WMD case for war with Iraq had been exaggerated. There's a lot of dispute about exactly what was said and what wasn't said. The BBC Today programme which is the leading radio current affairs programme led with a story from Andrew Gilligan, which didn't name David Kelly as Andrew's source. Now we know that David Kelly was, and my own intelligence sources confirmed that before the BBC itself confirmed it on Sunday 20th July. David Kelly was outed in the media, big dispute as to who authorised his name to be given to the media, and he was asked to appear before a committee in the House of Commons. There was a lot of controversy about what the government had been told, how truthful a dossier that they had prepared on Iraqi weapons of mass destruction was, and shortly after he gave evidence to the House of Commons, he was found dead on Friday 18th July of last year. He was found dead. There is a dispute over exactly where he was found.
According to the official version of events he was found dead in a copse, or a wood, at a place called Harrowdown Hill, between the village where he lived and the River Thames. But the forensic tent, it's noticeable, Alex, that the forensic tents that were set up by the local police force, Thames Valley Police, were actually set up in the field. Why you would have someone killed in the woods and have the police tent over the scene of the crime set up in the field, no-one has yet been able to explain to my satisfaction.
Now the government were blamed for causing the death, but the way the government were criticised was this: that they had caused his name to be leaked to the media. That had put him under intolerable pressure and he had allegedly committed suicide. The initial media reports all went with suicide and the mainstream media in the UK is still reporting it as a suicide. The government responded very quickly and brought in a Law Lord, Lord Hutton, who'd previously been Lord Chief Justice of Northern Ireland. And the Hutton Inquiry has very recently reported. Lord Hutton didn't challenge the suicide verdict, there was no cross-examination of witnesses before the Hutton Inquiry as to the cause of death. It was assumed that it was suicide and the BBC were essentially blamed for poor reporting, the government were let off the hook.
The Hutton Report, I'm sorry to say, is widely seen as a whitewash and it's been rubbished. A very senior British Intelligence officer recently retired, a Lieutenant Colonel, Crispin Black, who was on the Defence Intelligence Staff until 2002, has basically described the report as a `laughing stock' and I respectfully agree.
.... I wouldn't be allowed to say that Tony Blair had hired a judge, you understand that in England we don't hire judges [chuckles]. The judge is on the State payroll anyway and I wouldn't want to be thought of as suggesting that anybody had put a little extra funds Lord Hutton's way. I'm quite sure Lord Hutton took no extra payment.
...The Report, I'm sorry to say, with respect to Lord Hutton, the Report is a complete whitewash.
...This is the problem with appointing senior judges to hold inquiries. There's been a lot of adverse comment in England. The senior judge is, by definition, part of the establishment. It's very difficult to judge, of course, if he whitewashes the government, everybody says `Well it is a whitewash'. If he blames the government, well it's asking too much of a senior judge to go around blaming the government. It's not what senior judges do.
... on Saturday 19th July, David was murdered on the 17th, on Saturday the 19th, within 48 hours of the murder, I was contacted by a British intelligence officer who told me he'd been murdered. That didn't take me by surprise, I was suspicious of the suicide theory from the word go. Now that source told me he'd done some digging and discovered that, he didn't name names but he discovered that it had been known about in Whitehall prior to the 17th July that David Kelly was going to be taken down. Now normally with a suicide, Alex, you appreciate that we don't like people knowing in advance. If people know in advance of the death, that normally points away from suicide. ....
Now a lot of work has been done since the murder, and there's been particularly a great deal of medical research. Now it's absolutely clear that David was murdered. The suicide theory just doesn't hold water at all. The official version of events is that he took some Co-Proxamol tablets. Now Co-Proxamol is available in England only by prescription. There is a problem with that because there is no evidence that David Kelly was ever prescribed Co-Proxamol. Now Co-Proxamol I think is available in the United States, it's a combination of Dextropropoxythene and paracetamol in a ratio of 1 to 10. It's not a very powerful painkiller and the level of Co-Proxamol in the blood stream according to the official toxicology report was about one third, i.e. not enough to kill him. Now 29 tablets were allegedly missing, or were missing, from a packet of Co-Proxamol found by the body. The problem is that there is only one fifth of a tablet in the stomach and there's no evidence of substantial vomiting. There was a little bit of vomit found on the body but not much. And there's no analysis done of the material.
The stomach contents do not support the suggestion that he ingested 29 Co-Proxamol tablets. Interestingly, the initial media reports, and when we look at staged suicides or political assassinations, I find it very useful to concentrate on the early media reports because if there is a cover-up, usually the cover-up kicks in after 12, 24, 36 hours. The first media reports are very often the most accurate, particularly if they're coming from local news organisations. The early media reports made no mention of a bottle of water. The theory is, Alex, that he took these Co-Proxamol tablets having set out on a walk, in the course of which he was going to commit suicide, and took with him a bottle of water to swallow the tablets. Problem - no mention in early media reports of any bottle of water. That detail was only added in after a group of concerned people in England, professionals called the `Kelly Group' had made the point and it was already out into the open. Now, the suicide version of events can't be right. He was found with one wrist slashed and the ulnar artery, which is the artery
... he clearly didn't slit his own wrist. The idea that he exsanguinated, that he died from haemorrhaging, he bled out from a cut to one wrist only, to the ulnar artery, is just a nonsense Alex. Firstly the artery that was cut was the ulnar artery which is more difficult to reach, it's on the little finger side of the hand. It's deeper than the radial artery. Why go for an artery deep in the wrist when you can slit an artery much closer to the surface of the skin. That's the first problem.
The second problem, he, according to the autopsy report, he severed or transected the artery. But once you transect an artery, we have something called vaso-constriction. The artery retracts and that promotes clotting. It's very difficult to bleed out if you sever one artery only.
One doctor went around promoting the official version of events and attacked these doctors in the Guardian newspaper in England and talked about slashing `wrists'. Well David Kelly on the official version of events didn't slash his wrists, plural, he slashed one wrist only. It's highly unusual. Firstly, wrist slashing is not an effective method of committing sucide. One of the reasons people do it in a bath of hot water Is that you need to keep the temperature high. Yup. If you're out in the open, if you're not keeping the temperature high, the wrists, the arteries will not stay dilated. It is very difficult indeed to bleed out in the open even if you slit both wrists. Slitting one wrist only - much less blood loss and we have conflicting accounts for the amount of blood found by the body. The most reliable eye-witnesses, in my judgement, are probably the paramedics who found him. They talked about comparatively little blood loss. There is no solid evidence that any large, that a lot of blood had left the body. There were no adequate measurements of the amount of blood left in the major vessels, in the heart and so on.
In my judgement, based on conversations with sources and with medical experts and a great deal of work has been done over this since the murder, he was probably murdered by a combination of an injection, not through tablets, but an intravenous injection of Dextropropoxythene and paracetamol, the constituents of Co-Proxamol, and a muscle relaxant called Succinylcholine. Now Succinylcholine is a favourite method of assassinating people, it's used by intelligence agencies, particularly the French DGSE. Succinylcholine, although it's used therapeutically for treating [inaudible] incubation and so on, can be lethal and in combination with the constituents of Co-Proxamol, 30 milligrammes would probably have been a lethal dose. The problem for someone investigating an assassination by Succinylcholine is that it metabolises even after death and you only pick up the metabolites. In other words it's one of those drugs that leaves no trace unless you have a very expert pathologist who really knows what he or she is doing.
...you have to look for the enzymes it metabolises into. You won't find any trace of the original drug. It's fairly clear that the slash to the wrist was done to disguise the puncture wound. There's no puncture wound, but of course the slash to the wrist would've disguised it. Now the palm or face of the wrist, effectively the inside face of the wrist, is a very popular method, you know anaesthesiologists would use it to inject. It's quite realistic to suppose that David Kelly was injected in the wrist with the muscle relaxant and the Dextropropoxythene .....
... Firstly I should make it clear that I have absolutely no negation that anybody in either of the British intelligence agencies, MI5, the Security Service, or MI6, The Secret Intelligence Service, being involved. On the contrary, my sources are telling me that both services are extremely unhappy. Now the indications are, now you understand I'm being cautious on air, but there indications pointing towards an involvement by the French external intelligence agency the DGSE or Direction Ginirale de la Sicuriti Extirieure.
.. again I've got to be obviously careful on air, but the indications are that the tasking for the assassination came from within the UK, but I can't name any individual official or minister. The tasking was generated in the UK, went to Paris, was then OK'd in Paris, and on the information available to me, the operational agency for the assassination was DGSE. Now there are also indications, and I'm again, ... expressing myself with caution here, there are indications that DGSE, in order to false-flag the assassination, should their team be discovered, used Iraqi intelligence assets from the Iraqi Mukhabarat agency that were available in Damascus after the fall of Baghdad. And I have one source suggesting that an Iraqi team, that's to say an ex-Mukhabarat team, recruited in Damascus with the assistance of the Syrian intelligence operation, also the Mukhabarat, were flown into Corsica in the seven days prior to the assassination of David Kelly. Now the standard French practice when they carry out assassinations is to take their own team out. I am very doubtful that any of the people involved directly in the assassination of David Kelly are still alive. It would be highly unusual for the French to permit anyone involved in the assassination for them to survive.
They may not have worked for French intelligence before. If you're offered a job by French intelligence I would turn it down. Anybody approached by French intelligence to do a hit, I would strongly advise them to turn it down or even increase their life insurance. They were probably, I mean assuming it was Iraqis and I can't be positive; there are indications pointing towards an Iraqi involvement, I can't be positive about DGSE. I have a range of sources as you've said, and those sources point to Paris and they point towards DGSE.
...It's the DST, Direction de la Surveillance du Territoire, which is the internal agency. And the DST are internal, the DGSE are external. Let's just put it this way, Alex, the operation has all the hallmarks of DGSE. British intelligence, or my sources, are furious, they're not happy at all because David, after all, was a British intelligence asset.
...the source that spoke to me on the 19th July, after the assassination, you see this source was a friend of David Kelly's, so David was a friend of a friend. This source obviously is not very happy. It didn't take him five minutes to work out that this was murder, not suicide. He then made enquiries and he established from other sources that the murder was known about in advance, i.e. the murder of David Kelly was known about within a section of Whitehall, prior to the 17th July, and he was very unhappy. That source came through to me and effectively I'm acting as an interface between the media and the intelligence community. It is not possible for the intelligence community to do what I'm doing now and go on to a radio show and broadcast it around the world.
....it would depend on the French assessment of whether or not the government would be at risk. The French would definitely want Tony Blair, Tony Blair's government to remain in office. They would be very concerned indeed at any suggestion that might risk the government. There's a very strong geo-political motive for the French retaining their ally. Don't forget that the Blair government is a close ally of President Chirac. There have been a series of private meetings between Prime Minister Blair and President Chirac. Tony Blair is the most high profile politician in the UK committed to destroying the national currency. And the French very much want Blair to remain in office for geo-political reasons. We've just had a very unusual summit between Blair, Chirac and the German Chancellor Schroeder. I have to be very cautious, I'm not naming Tony Blair as the person who generated the tasking for the assassination. Indeed, I am quite comfortable that it wasn't Tony Blair who put the tasking into Paris. Now, question marks: What did he know and when did he know it? There I can't be so confident. ...
He's a puppet. He's a puppet Prime Minister anyway. He's committed to the European Union. I mean he takes his orders, like anyone says we should be in the European Union, you take your orders from Brussels, because that's what government from Brussels involves. That's the constitutional position. You know European Community law is supreme, according to the European Union, and it takes precedence over British law. ...But that's a broader issue.
I'm often called upon formally or informally - usually informally - to deconstruct assassinations, to look at a particular assassination and try and work out what's happened. Basically, in counter-intelligence work we would normally recognise eight methods of trying to disguise an assassination.
First method is you would try and blame it on your opponents. That was done in Sweden recently with the assassination of Anna Lindh, the very nice Swedish Foreign Minister. An attempt was made to blame that on opponents of Sweden joining the Euro.
You can blame it on a terrorist organisation. That was done particularly with the IRA and the attempted assassination of Margaret Thatcher; the assassination of the war hero, Airey Neave, a Conservative MP, was blamed on the Irish National Liberation Army. The terrorist organisation might carry out the assassination, but in almost every case the terrorist organisation is working for a government.
Third method of disguising assassinations, Alex, in my experience is to false-flag them, where it's blamed on another agency. Now there are elements of false-flagging in the Kelly assassination, because had the team which carried out the assassination been discovered, clearly it could have been false-flagged via Baghdad, and you know, we'd have heard about three Iraqis in Oxfordshire, if assuming it was Iraqis for the sake of argument, the blame would then go to Baghdad and Paris would be let off the hook. The Iranians tried that quite successfully with the attempted assassination of the Pope, back in the early 1980's.
Then you have the lone-gunman theory. Now you guys are very familiar with that, because you'll recall that somebody tried to blame Lee Harvey Oswald for the assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy- an amusing suggestion to those of us know a little bit more about that assassination than is in the public domain. We've had a lone-gunman, a classic example of a lone-gunman assassination theory in Europe with the assassination of the Dutch politician Pim Fortuyn, which was blamed on a lone-gunman. An explanation which doesn't carry much weight with me since in the photographs of the assassin that I saw, there was what appeared to me to be a very thin wire leading up to an ear-piece. Normally, Alex, lone-gunmen don't run around with radios and ear-pieces, particularly high-tech ones
Then you've got illness. Now this is fairly rare. It's difficult to fake an illness. It was done in the case of a British politician, Hugh Gaitskill, who was opposed to Britain joining the European Economic Community, and he came down with a tropical disease in Moscow in the middle of winter. It was spotted at the time as an assassination, but MI5, although they'd brought in Porton Down, where David Kelly worked incidentally, Porton Down were brought in but Porton Down couldn't work out how the disease which got Hugh Gaitskill, which is Lupus Disseminata, a very nasty disease indeed - attacks the organs, very similar to Ebola - how this tropical disease had found its way to Moscow, and they couldn't work out how, what the agent was for getting the Lupus into Hugh Gaitskill. We now know it was probably aerosol, but at the time that technology wasn't known about in England.
Then you've got accident and we've, there are a couple of interesting political assassinations in Zimbabwe, of road accidents which I would put a question mark against. It's less common to try and stage accidents, but it's not unknown. A friend of mine was nearly taken out in Argentina a few years ago in what looked to me to be a slightly dubious accident. ....the Diana assassination is certainly, probably the classic recent example of trying to make it look like an accident. ....the best people to talk to are the Israelis, because they had Danny Yatom, who's a lovely guy by the way, who was then head of Mossad in '97, who are really nice people, Danny had teams, I think, on the entrance to the Alma Tunnel and on the exit as well. Interesting man. Lovely chap.
The seventh method of disguising assassinations in my experience is to try and use a naturally occurring poison. A favourite of intelligence agencies is Saxitoxin, which occurs in shellfish so it's possible, providing you can get some shellfish into the stomach of the victim, Saxitoxin assassination providing you've successfully disguised the puncture wound, or you can find a method of getting the poison into the body. You know, you can get away with that if you're lucky.
And then the final method is the one tried in the case of David Kelly, that you try and make the murder look like suicide. But it's very difficult. In this case the attempt to slash the wrist was pointless, because he was already dead. And there's not enough blood. None of the witnesses, in my judgement, reports enough blood consistent with him bleeding out and the medical experts we've talked to, and I've been insisting on this, the medical experts generally reckon that for this, you'd be looking for five pints, that's English pints of blood. There's nothing I've seen that persuades me that more than a pint was lost and that's about consistent with what you'd expect from transecting one ulnar artery. Completely transecting it, it then retracts, clots, and you don't get, you get surprisingly little bleeding from cutting your ulnar artery.
....the political consequences, the mainstream media in the UK are largely committed to UK membership of the European Union, and my guess is that most of the newspapers in the UK would be worried about the political consequences of going public with any story suggesting David Kelly was assassinated. And then you've got technical competence, there aren't that many good investigative journalists in the UK. It's not that difficult to get the mainstream media to buy an official version of events.
My source learned after the assassination that others in Whitehall were aware of the assassination in advance, yes. And that source had spoken to, obviously he was a friend of David Kelly's, knew him well, had worked with him, and clearly once his friend was found dead in a wood, made investigations and when he made investigations he discovered that this assassination was known about in advance. ... There was also an interesting conversation with David Broucher who was formerly British Ambassador in Prague in the Czech Republic, along similar lines. That, David Broucher I think was a witness, in fact, to the Hutton Inquiry. David Kelly worked, I never had the privilege of meeting him, I would have loved to have met him, my friend certainly worked with him and knew him. David worked very closely with the United States intelligence and worked very closely with Sergeant Mai Pederson in particular, but I get the impression he was very highly thought of in the US intelligence community as well.
Now motive is another question altogether. It's tolerably clear, one can't be certain, tolerably clear that he was taken out in order to prevent him talking. Now what is unclear is whether he was taken out because there was concern he was about to acquire intelligence that might be highly damaging, or taken out because he had acquired it and was about to talk to the media. We know there was concern about....****P>I'm opposed to assassinations in principle, one of the reasons why I'm outraged by David Kelly's assassination - assassination is a double-edged sword there are indications that he (Tony Blair) may be preparing to resign. He's denied officially over the weekend that he's been planning to resign, which is an indication that he is. Never believe anything until it's officially denied. A number of key advisors have bailed out. Alastair Campbell, another key advisor, Philip Gould, has just been offered a peerage, which is a form of retirement we have in England that you don't have in the United States - There are now calls, Michael Meacher's just issued a call, he's former government - nice chap - former government minister. Michael has issued a call over the last weekend, calling on him to go. There are indications that he is on his way out, but you know, it's up to him. Or up to his party.....you could have ten different politicians and economists and military strategists sit around a table and come up with ten different answers as to whether Neville Chamberlain surrendered more of Europe than Tony Blair, and whether Tony Blair surrendered more to France and Germany than Neville Chamberlain did. It's a close run thing. ....I have to say having met Tony Blair, he's not, he's quite a pleasant, personable individual. He's not a monster when you meet him.
I'm aware of an unusually high percentage of microbiologists going south and it's - put it this way, it's attracted my interest. I think David Kelly wasn't taken out as part of a systematic campaign to take out WMD scientists.